i am afraid...

[electricalice]

selfishness is killing us and the world is becoming distorted and souless...

[k2hsharpe]

what do you fear??

[Esko]

I think many(or most?) people have always been more or less selfish, the world hasnt changed in that way in my opinion.

[Mr. Blocks]

Being selfish is the core of all human beings. What we tend to do is a "you rub my back, and I'll rub yours".

And those who don't do that are soon found out to be untrustworthy and are in fact defective human beings, that are no good to keep around, and will soon be ridden of.

If everyone was defective, the world would not be as it is, it wouldn't operate. To survive we have to learn to cooperate, and with that we will maintain since it is what we need to survive. Those those don't do it (again I say) will be recognised and remove from peoples trust.

I've seen experiments made on this type of thing. It's interesting since you will see other animals besides human beings do it.

[electricalice]

political figures that were around before i was born such as thatcher killed off the last shards of community or caring about other peoples feelings in short i think money turns people into psychopaths the very deffinicion of which is a person who only cares about their own intrests if, as the last person says this is innately human well then we all may as well jump off a cliff now and the momment i believe it to be definately true i will because to me 'ill scratch your back you scratch mine' is also selfish what i mean is just doing something for someone who needs help and not asking for anything back

[electricalice]

I think many(or most?) people have always been more or less selfish, the world hasnt changed in that way in my opinion.

i wouldnt know really i was only born in 1990

[Esko]

political figures that were around before i was born such as thatcher killed off the last shards of community or caring about other peoples feelings in short i think money turns people into psychopaths the very deffinicion of which is a person who only cares about their own intrests if, as the last person says this is innately human well then we all may as well jump off a cliff now and the momment i believe it to be definately true i will because to me 'ill scratch your back you scratch mine' is also selfish what i mean is just doing something for someone who needs help and not asking for anything back

How did those political figures actually do that?

There has always been money or something else like that, and there has always been people who would rather have it all to him/herself. More people like that today? Dunno.

Actually i think the world is probably even a little friendlier place than say... 1000 years ago since then you probably HAD to be selfish every time you could in order to feed yourself and your family. A wasted opportunity might have meant death.

[k2hsharpe]

"i wouldnt know really i was only born in 1990"

OUCH !!!
lol

but alice has a point, she was born into a world where greed and self interest had become something to aspire to, to be applauded - much more so in the 80's and 90's I think than the 60's and 70's. There must be an awful lot of young people that have known no other world

[sunday]

In terms of warfare, we live in the worst period ever known to man. Never before the 20th century did atomic bombs, explosive missiles, mustard gas etc, exist. And we do not wage war only in the summer, as in the 100 year war, but around the clock, every day of the year: potentially.

In that way, we do live in the most fearful time imaginable.

But for the middle class and upper class in peaceful first world countries, with welfare, and free health care...we are beyond blessed.

[electricalice]

we are blessed in some ways but cursed in others because greed opresses us the more we have the less we are content with little

[Esko]

In terms of warfare, we live in the worst period ever known to man. Never before the 20th century did atomic bombs, explosive missiles, mustard gas etc, exist. And we do not wage war only in the summer, as in the 100 year war, but around the clock, every day of the year: potentially.

In that way, we do live in the most fearful time imaginable.

But for the middle class and upper class in peaceful first world countries, with welfare, and free health care...we are beyond blessed.

Maybe its not so bad nowdays... Think about the Mongols for example. If your city didnt surrender it was wiped out to the last man, woman and child and that happened quite a few times. The Persian city Nishpur had almost 2 million people and not many after the siege. Whole cultures were wiped out which doesnt happen very often anymore.

Count in Timurids, Arabic empires, Romans, Seljuqs, Ottomans, Persians and whatever else you can come up with and the number of dead people and destruction becomes almost unimaginable. I think this is a far more peaceful era than the middle ages for example.

The presence of nuclear weapons makes things pretty scary though. A chance of world wide catastrophe.

[Esko]

Dont take me too seriously btw, i just happen to love debating even though i might agree :D

[Mr. Blocks]

political figures that were around before i was born such as thatcher killed off the last shards of community or caring about other peoples feelings in short i think money turns people into psychopaths the very deffinicion of which is a person who only cares about their own intrests if, as the last person says this is innately human well then we all may as well jump off a cliff now and the momment i believe it to be definately true i will because to me 'ill scratch your back you scratch mine' is also selfish what i mean is just doing something for someone who needs help and not asking for anything back

Bold part one - I think the term you are trying to use there is a Sociopath, not Psychopath. Psychopath is from birth, whereas Sociopaths aren't.

Bold part two - Your being silly. Of course it's selfish, and I tell you it's actually not possible to do something for someone else where you get NOTHING back in return. For example:

I'm thinking about taking a year out to go to Africa in which I will volunteer to help children, etc. I could spend near enough £3000 to go and do this and not be paid anything in return, I shall work for free.

I might not get anything solid back, but emotionally it will be rewarding.

The other day, a kid outside of a game shop asked me to trade in his movies because he had no ID to do it himself, he said he asked people for 30-odd minutes before I came by, I was the only person to agree to do it. He offered to pay me for doing it but I refused that. I did it for nothing, but I felt good about helping someone out when I got nothing solid from it.

I think you mistake the idea of "getting something back". I scratch the kids back by helping him out, and he does by back by giving me the opportunity to help him out.

Your logic is flawed.

In terms of warfare, we live in the worst period ever known to man. Never before the 20th century did atomic bombs, explosive missiles, mustard gas etc, exist. And we do not wage war only in the summer, as in the 100 year war, but around the clock, every day of the year: potentially.

In that way, we do live in the most fearful time imaginable.

But for the middle class and upper class in peaceful first world countries, with welfare, and free health care...we are beyond blessed.

Honestly, uou ought to be ashamed of yourself for typing such nonsense. Most fearful time imaginable? In the history of mankind?

Hmm, let's see, Britain ruled by the Romans. If I were to live in that time, you know just when the Romans left the land leaving everyone living their defencless against the Viking.. would I not live in fear of my family and friends being over run by Viking anyday? The Romans leave us defenseless against men that attack for land and wealth. I see nothing that compares to that right now.

Germany around the same time where the people had to leave Germany and try to enter Roman protection against the Huns. These people were then taking in by the Romans and treated like crap until they fought back.

The goths
The vandals
The vikings
The saxxons

Etc.

We live in far better times than people back then did. Do your history sunshine.

Oh and yes, I'd rather not be looking in the eyes of a man that is about to slit my throat. Id much rather be killed real quick by a bomb.

How about having your lungs cut out of your body whilst your still alive? It was barbaric. Sure, these days out warfare capabilities are horrible, but it is hardly the most fearful time imaginable. You can at least know that if you die, the chances are you won't even know it by the time you are that, dead.

[electricalice]

im sorry but i have helped people not for me but for them and i think this is lost on most people but we will agree to differ as to weather this is possible and im sorr but how can a baby be born a psychopath? hitler was a psychopath but he was abused as a child how can you know that didnt affet him yes he was a hideous example of humanity but you cant say someone is born bad

[Isis-ra]

I think regardless of what we think, or feel about a situation psychologically our thoughts are in always in our self-interests (Philosophically its called Psychological Egoism <--- quite basic)

Regardless of so-called Altruistic acts.

[Gardenhead]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it is 'impossible' to be anything but selfish. Feeling good about what you've done isn't exactly 'getting something in return'. For me at least, it's a happy byproduct; and I'm sure many a greater man than me has given his life for someone else, and it can hardly be said that we are getting anything out of that.

You appear to have an extremely pessimistic view of human nature, though probably not wholly without reason. I think altruism does exist, even if it is sometimes scarce.

[sunday]

Morph Phoenix, I think we've had a misunderstanding. As I pointed out in my first paragraph, I was talking about the 20th century until today. By 'time' I meant the modern world. I was specifically talking about the new kind of modern warfare, that exists around the clock. As opposed to warfare before the event of technology. These wars were waged only in the summer months. Soldiers would return in the winter. We now live in a time, and by that I mean an age or era, that war can be delivered 24 hours a day. That is due to technology.

And as I said "In this way, it is the most fearful" then it is obvious I was saying that we live in the most fearful time only in terms of warfare capabilities. In terms of warfare only.

I did not say we live in the most injust, or barbaric times.

[electricalice]

maybe i was a bit harsh saying theres something wrong with doing it to feel better i just think it shouldnt be the MAIN reason you are helping someone

[Gardenhead]

Sorry, I should've been clearer; my post was directed towards Morph-Phoenix.

[daysleeper]

You make some good points but it is a bit harsh to blame Mrs Thatcher for killing off community, while at the same time saying you don't know how or why she did it because you weren't born until 1990! It's good that you've got strong opinions about selfishness and greed in society. I'm sure there are lots of young people who feel the same as you (as well as people old enough to be your parents (like me) and people old enough to be my parents, so all is not lost is it? Your generation are the future polititians, law makers etc. and for every revolution there tends to be a counter-revolution.

This country has been wallowing in consumerism and debt for at least 20 years, and although Mrs T encouraged some of that through making it easier for people to buy their own home, she also discouraged it by shifting taxes away from income and onto spending (VAT). But people are free to make their own choices and many chose to spend, spend ,spend, regardless of whether they can or could afford it. It is difficult to sympathise with people who caused the latest housing boom and bust. Yes the banks were greedy and reckless too, but if people can't see for themselves that paying 80% of your net income on a mortgage is ridiculous then they only have themselves to blame. If people didn't do it, property prices wouldn't have escalated, those people wouldn't have had to take out other loans and credit cards to buy their plasma tvs and state of the art music systems when last year's versions did the job. So then we wouldn't be trillionjs of pounds in debt and effectively a bankrupt nation.

The last ten years the present Government has been doing precisely the same as individuals. Spending money it can't afford and selling off assets to buy more stuff, such as our once massive gold reserves at a fraction of what they would be worth today!

We've now come to realise that this orgy of spending creates nothing but debt and misery for most. Owning THINGS means nothing. It is people that matter, love, friendships. In other words community. So hopefully the next generation of movers and thinkers, like alice here will realise the folly of their parent's and grandparent's greed and recklessness and reverse the trend away from ownership and towards sharing and community.

[electricalice]

Mrs T DID make people think selfishly no you cant just blame her people are greedy but she did titallate peoples greed and now its got to the stage where many people dont care how many backs they stab to get to the top earning bracket and spend their lives chasing mindlessly after bits of paper and then they die just like a poor man so in the end what does it all matter?

[daysleeper]

A fair point well made. I don't chase mindlessly after bits of paper, unless they're poems or uncashed betting slips. Everything else is just paper. Which was once a tree, but is now a missing breath of oxygen from the lungs of the planet. We're doomed whichever way you look at it, suffocated either by greed, jealousy, global warming, apathy or pessimism. On that basis life is indeed utterly futile for all of us. Nothing does matter. We are born, we exist, we die. End of.

I had been studying the form for Cheltenham next week, but what's the point? I'm going to die like a poor man soon enough whether or not I manage to find a 20-1 winner. Overcome by my rampant greed of my winnings, the poverty of my losses or the literal and economic tsunami about to hit this sinking island we call Great Britain. What does it all matter? Nothing matters. All is lost. The end is nigh. Woe is us. We're DOOMED Captain Mainwairing. Doomed and marooned.

I shall take your advice, retire to the library and do the decent thing. For those of you still around next week I advise a large bet on Mikael De Huegenot to win the Ballymore Properties Hurdle. At 7-1 he represents massive value, but in the grand scheme of things he's a horse that spends his life mindlessly chasing after other horses over fences, and then will die just like a poor horse. So what does it matter?

[electricalice]

im afraid that my generation who are the future polititions are mostly even more vapid dillusional and selfish than the present bunch

[Nobody]

Being selfish is the core of all human beings. What we tend to do is a "you rub my back, and I'll rub yours".

And those who don't do that are soon found out to be untrustworthy and are in fact defective human beings, that are no good to keep around, and will soon be ridden of.

If everyone was defective, the world would not be as it is, it wouldn't operate. To survive we have to learn to cooperate, and with that we will maintain since it is what we need to survive. Those those don't do it (again I say) will be recognised and remove from peoples trust.

I've seen experiments made on this type of thing. It's interesting since you will see other animals besides human beings do it.

You'll also see people with power not give a shit about what others think of them.

Your theory definately works with people that remain in the same class...but lower-class beings can't really do anything about upper-class people not 'scratching their backs'.

It's sad, but just the way the world works.

(Maybe I'm a tad closeminded, but I do believe it's hard to find people of different classes to actually work at life hand in hand.)

[daysleeper]

im afraid that my generation who are the future polititions are mostly even more vapid dillusional and selfish than the present bunch

I blame the parents! :guiness:

Actually I think you're being rather harsh on your own generation. True there are plenty of 'chavs' and 'hoodies' or whatever you call them standing on street corners doing nothing except soak up benefits and drugs, but look further afield and you'll find loads of talented and motivated young actors, singers, poets, musicians, scientists, mathematicians, lawyers, politicians etc. What about those University Challenge teams? They know far more about most things than I do, so the education system in Britain hasn't gone completely down the pan.

And what do YOU want to do Alice? Simply complaining that there is a problem, there's no hope and admitting defeat makes you part of the problem, not the answer don't you think? It is apathy that is killing this nation, just as much as selfishness and greed. if people who claim not to be greedy, 'back-stabbing' and selfish don't care enough to try and do something about those who are, then what point are you trying to make other than that we all might as well do nothing?

[Nobody]

I blame the parents! :guiness:

Actually I think you're being rather harsh on your own generation. True there are plenty of 'chavs' and 'hoodies' or whatever you call them standing on street corners doing nothing except soak up benefits and drugs, but look further afield and you'll find loads of talented and motivated young actors, singers, poets, musicians, scientists, mathematicians, lawyers, politicians etc. What about those University Challenge teams? They know far more about most things than I do, so the education system in Britain hasn't gone completely down the pan.

And what do YOU want to do Alice? Simply complaining that there is a problem, there's no hope and admitting defeat makes you part of the problem, not the answer don't you think? It is apathy that is killing this nation, just as much as selfishness and greed. if people who claim not to be greedy, 'back-stabbing' and selfish don't care enough to try and do something about those who are, then what point are you trying to make other than that we all might as well do nothing?

I'd like to point out, that complaining does do it's job quite well. If no-one came out shouting, there'd be no listeners...no-one to raise and hand and say, they're feeling the same. Where would the world be without those, complaining? In a situation far worse than it could be now...that's where.

And as to your remark about those soaking up drugs and benefits:

I'm not proud of saying this, but I'm a drug user and I doubt anybody here would say I'm a bad and / or selfish person. Also, I'm a singer, poet and artist...not famous, but very well-known to most in the area.

I am selfish to some extent, but I know the fine line that should not be crossed, when it comes to thinking of myself. And some of the smartest people that ever walked the face of our beloved planet were frequent drug users.

So I doubt that drugs are any piece of the pie you could call a problem...they are no more than the crumbs...the offspring, if you will, of what's been revealed as a problem.

Just my opinion...as always...I'm willing to listen to anyone who'd like to tell me to go stick it elsewhere. :)

[daysleeper]

Is your name Alice too?!

Why aren't you proud to say you're a drug user? Is it because they are illegal or because you're ashamed of your drug addiction? You say that you are selfish 'too some extent' but know the fine line that should not be crossed. Could you define that line please? at what point does your selfishness become unacceptable? And is it just your decision as to what that fine line is. To many law abiding citizens you've already crossed that line by supporting an 'industry' that exploits millions of people, launders huge amounts of money, helps pay for people trafficking and forced prostitution, terrorism and many other evils that are run by orgainised crime mobs across the world. Drugs may be the crumbs, but without the crumbs you've got no pie! Think about that next time you light a spliff and consider how fine the line really is between your selfisness and other people's suffering.!

[Nobody]

Is your name Alice too?!

Why aren't you proud to say you're a drug user? Is it because they are illegal or because you're ashamed of your drug addiction? You say that you are selfish 'too some extent' but know the fine line that should not be crossed. Could you define that line please? at what point does your selfishness become unacceptable? And is it just your decision as to what that fine line is. To many law abiding citizens you've already crossed that line by supporting an 'industry' that exploits millions of people, launders huge amounts of money, helps pay for people trafficking and forced prostitution, terrorism and many other evils that are run by orgainised crime mobs across the world. Drugs may be the crumbs, but without the crumbs you've got no pie! Think about that next time you light a spliff and consider how fine the line really is between your selfisness and other people's suffering.!

I'm not ashamed because they're illegal... I'm not proud of it, because it's fucking me up bad.

And the fine line, to me, is crossed as soon as I harm others. I think that's a definition most would find acceptable?

And the crumbs are a product of the pie, so by all means:

Spare me, if you're trying to tell me, that I'm screwing anyone over, when I buy any kind of substance and use it.

And I suppose you might as well define drugs, before you go down that road.
Medication of any sort is considerd a drug. Antidepressants...also drugs. I guess it's the way you use the drug. If you're using them to have fun at a party, just so you feel better while hitting on someone, yeah...you're a selfish fuck...but I doubt there's really anything wrong with smoking a joint with a few friends at a location, where we couldn't harm anyone.


EDIT:

I overread what you said on prostitution. I personally buy from people that grow their own plants. I think about where I get it from, because I don't want to support just whoever has something to sell.

Oh...while we're on that. The next time you go to the store to buy something. Clothes, Toys, Games or maybe food, Think about who was part of making that product. At least 30% of it involves child labor. Yeah...that's right...some poor kid in africa's working his fingers aaall bloody for us day in, day out.

And prostitution isn't derived from drug usage or even it's trafficing. Drug abuse mostly follows prostitution. I have a friend, with her own experience on that area.

It's basically just what point of view you have...

Sadly, most peoples opinions are either the one or the other extreme...there seems to be no neutral view.

[Nobody]

Before editting my old post 'again', I'll doublepost this once.

If we were to think about everything we do, so thoroughly, if it's about drugs or anything else. We'd live a life in isolation, due to the fear of hurting others.

I see now where you're coming from on the whole drug abuse thing, and apologize for being so defensive of my own actions by wording my post so agressive.
(selfishness is our being, in some way)

But I assure you. Just because I take drugs, I'm not a bad person. I would never intentionaly harm anyone...and I do think about what the repercussions of my habit could be.

I guess I just didn't like the way you worded the post that got me started...it seemed to me, like you were trying to put some kind of bad light on drug users (I'm not saying that it's something that should be portrayed in the brightest of lights...) I just got the impression, that you were saying, just because someone takes drugs, they're a lost cause...

[BenJohnson]

Maybe selfishness is just another sign that mankind hasn't progressed very far during the time they have existed. I don't believe it is just a problem of our time. The slave trade was a product of selfishness and greed. There was no back scratching going on there. The empire building of the major European nations was another example, I want your land, gold, etc. If I don't get it I will slaughter everyone who stands in my way.

On the other hand there are major works of unselfishness going on. The open source movement in computers has resulted in a vast amount of work by individuals for no benefit to themselves, but without their work the Internet would not be the place it is today. These individuals are able to negate some of the effects of the huge companies such as Microsoft who are the modern day empire builders.

[electricalice]

WHAT? is my name alice 'too'? yes i dont use drugs what are you talking about?

[daysleeper]

My intention was no to criticise anyone individually. It was about how we define 'selfishness'. We are all human and therefore by definition, assuming we are basically decent people, all have elements of selfishness and altruism. Even giving things to people could be deemed theoretically 'selfish' if the person gets more pleasure from giving their money away than spending it on themselves!! I know that is a slightly daft logic, but it shows how difficult it is to decide what is good, bad behaviour, what is selfish but harmless or selfish but self harming and therefore ok because it is not hurting anyone else. Often it is hurting others, even if it's your own family who love and care about you but feel powerless to help.

I don't like to refer to you as 'nobody', but that is the user name you've chosen. I'm sure it's not true. As you say, you have talents and skills, so why choose such a negative name? Again I'm not criticising, but that, plus the fact you acknowledge the drug habit is damaging you, indicates a lack of self esteem. The best thing you could do frankly is to be a bit more 'selfish', try and value yourself as those who love you value you. Finding ways and means of recognising your problems, and seeking help, which ultimately would make you a happier person and thus of more use to yourself AND society in general. It would really be an extremely unselfish thing to do, but a very self-enhancing one in the long term.

I certainly am not attacking people who use drugs. I'm on anti-depressants and other 'legal' stuff, but I've realised that these things simply dull the pain, allow me to exist in a state of uselessness in my life, not enhancing it. They also make lots of money for companies who have dubious moral agendas in creating more drugs and more money for themselves, when the truth is that their drugs don't cure anything! So I am trying to address my problems in a more proactive way than to carry on giving in to the dulling of pain and therefore giving up on myself and life.

In the end there is no difference between me and you in that way. The thing is though that people who become addicted to illegal drugs are not bad people, biut victims of fundamentally bad people...the sorts of people I talked about whose evil extends beyond not giving a toss about the damage they cause their victims, but into ANYTHING that can make them richer and KNOWING that they are killing people, either directly, or indierctly.

I have a friend in psychiatric hospital at this very moment who is suffering from severe cannabis psychosis. He suffers from bi-polar disorder and has legal drugs that help control his illness, but sometimes he smokes cannabis, because he chooses to, but it ALWAYS triggers another episode of psychosisis. So he's his own worst enemy to some extent, but if the dealers didn't sell him that crap he wouldn't be able to use it and he would spend more of his life being well and less being locked in a padded cell. I'm not making this up, it is true. Six months ago he was volunteering at an old folks home and being extremely productive, helpful and giving to others. He's a nice bloke, but at the moment he's a wreck and that isn't just sad for him, but also for the old chap who he used to play chess with, the old lady who he gave some classical music cd's to and others whose lives have been diminished by his abscence.

So although it is not easy, addressing our problems as individuals, accepting we are 'flawed' and valuing ourselves, then eventually the bad people will have no one to sell their drugs to and their empires of evil would be dismantled and society as a whole would be a much better place. My friend is 'selfish' to use things he enjoys in the short term, but which cause him and others long term damage, but he's also a victim of those who are all too ready to exploit his vulnerability.

Of course this is all idealistic and the evils of the world will never be eradicated, but the less 'crumbs' there are, the smaller the pie of 'evil'.

Look at it in reverse:

It's like recycling. As individuals, doing 'our bit' seems pointless because in the grand scheme of things my bag of rubbish is nothing. But when you get 20 million people in a country and billions around the world 'doing their bit', suddenly you've got a very big 'pie' made up of all the crumbs who together have made a HUGE positive difference to the future welfare of the planet and the people who live on it.

[daysleeper]

WHAT? is my name alice 'too'? yes i dont use drugs what are you talking about?

I didn't say you did Alice! I was, at the time, a bit peeved that the other person chose to answer my question to you on your behalf!! Anyway, read my latest reply and hopefully everyone can see I'm not accusing, blaming or criticising anyone individually, just making the point that we can all say 'what's the point?', but if we all do that then there is, by definition, no point. We're all flawed, weak, selfish but also have the potential to be good, caring, supportive etc if we learn from our own or other people's mistakes and acknowledge them as part of the human condition rather than use them as sticks to beat each other with!!

If we do it the other way round and try and come up with ways and means of finding a point as individuals, then that enhances individuals AND society. :)

[daysleeper]

A fair point well made. I don't chase mindlessly after bits of paper, unless they're poems or uncashed betting slips. Everything else is just paper. Which was once a tree, but is now a missing breath of oxygen from the lungs of the planet. We're doomed whichever way you look at it, suffocated either by greed, jealousy, global warming, apathy or pessimism. On that basis life is indeed utterly futile for all of us. Nothing does matter. We are born, we exist, we die. End of.

I had been studying the form for Cheltenham next week, but what's the point? I'm going to die like a poor man soon enough whether or not I manage to find a 20-1 winner. Overcome by my rampant greed of my winnings, the poverty of my losses or the literal and economic tsunami about to hit this sinking island we call Great Britain. What does it all matter? Nothing matters. All is lost. The end is nigh. Woe is us. We're DOOMED Captain Mainwairing. Doomed and marooned.

I shall take your advice, retire to the library and do the decent thing. For those of you still around next week I advise a large bet on Mikael De Huegenot to win the Ballymore Properties Hurdle. At 7-1 he represents massive value, but in the grand scheme of things he's a horse that spends his life mindlessly chasing after other horses over fences, and then will die just like a poor horse. So what does it matter?

Now look here all my lovely altrusitic friends. Proof positive that doing our bit can help people's lives for the better! I'm sure you all followed me in to Ladbrookes with a hefty wager on the wonderful Mikael De Huegenot and will be spending your winnings wisely. Is gambling bad? Not when you know what you're doing. ;)

In the grand scheme of things he's just a horse, but today he's a horse that has made a miserable man happy and £250 richer than he was this morning!

2:05 Cheltenham:

1 Mikael D'haguenet 5-2 Fav
2 Karabak 4-1
3 Diamond Harry 4-1
14 ran

I shared this information with you all last week in a spirit of goodwill and altruism and in my capacity of TPF Horse Racing correspondent. 7-1 was indeed a massive price. for the horse went off 5-2 favourite and floated up the hill at Cheltenham like Pegasus to prove my point beyond doubt! Why should I be the only one to gain from such knowledge when I was able to share it with all the lovely poetic people of TPF?? It would have been selfish of me to keep it to myself.

If we all do our bit, then suddenly the dark skies open, the sun appears and all is well with the world. :)

[Mr. Blocks]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it is 'impossible' to be anything but selfish. Feeling good about what you've done isn't exactly 'getting something in return'. For me at least, it's a happy byproduct; and I'm sure many a greater man than me has given his life for someone else, and it can hardly be said that we are getting anything out of that.

You appear to have an extremely pessimistic view of human nature, though probably not wholly without reason. I think altruism does exist, even if it is sometimes scarce.

I don't see my views as pessimistic personally, more realistic.

Feeling good about doing something is something in return. I don't see how you can dispute that. "feeling good" IS something, depends how MUCH you believe it is. But giving sometimes can reap more reward than receiving from another. I give blood, and I do it because I believe in the cause. I get SOMETHING from doing that, to say I get nothing.. if I were to get nothing I believe that I just wouldn't see the point in giving.

I really do disagree with you on this. Iris-ra has a nice way of putting it, and I agree with that was said there.

EDIT: Giving your life for another. Generally, people won't give their life up in a situation where they don't know the other person, such as:

"Guy one"
"Guy two"

Guy one and guy two do not know each other. Until Guy three takes them both captive.

Guy three gives them a choice, who to die? They would most probably choose each other, why would they not? You could think of reasons as to why they wouldn't, but then those reasons bring with them a "return" to the person that chooses to give up their lives. People won't do that if they believe they actually get NOTHING from it, they might not live to see or feel the benefit, but they will die knowing of the benefit at least.

And that would be their return, their reason. I doubt you could find an example where I couldn't point out the return. People don't give for no reason, people get something from everything they choose to do. Ignoring emotional and mental health issues.

*snip* *snip*

I did not say we live in the most injust, or barbaric times.

I do apologise for that. My mood wasn't a great one at the time, and I believe it had caused me to read through quick enough to miss the point you were trying to make.

Now I feel a bit stupid.

You'll also see people with power not give a shit about what others think of them.

Your theory definately works with people that remain in the same class...but lower-class beings can't really do anything about upper-class people not 'scratching their backs'.

It's sad, but just the way the world works.

(Maybe I'm a tad closeminded, but I do believe it's hard to find people of different classes to actually work at life hand in hand.)

I understand that. Again it's another natural state that humans have. When you have it all, and have it all because others have nothing.. are you really going to give it all up for people you don't even know personally? Hardly, not when you're in control of a country at least. It's why people with power don't give a shit, not unless they have to give a shit.. which is when their power has the chance of being taken away.

Humans also look out for their own, so an upper class type would scratch the back of another person whom is upper class. Unless there is something great to be had by scratching the back of someone "lower" than you are. We do still go by class, not so much as we used to, either that or it's just not as obvious these days.