Patriotism

[Nobody]

I personally believe that patriotism is totally unnessecary. I mean. wherever you're born, you are born. You can't choose where to be born, so I feel being proud of what nationality you are quite idiotic. I've never been proud of being american or german. I can understand being proud of your own looks and stuff like that, because you have to maintain your body's shape or how your skin looks. But being proud of your nationality? I just don't understand it. Maybe I'm a bit closeminded about this, so if someone would like to enlighten me, please do so. :)

(I decided to make this thread, because turkey is playing germany in soccer / football tonight and everybody's going fucking nuts over who's better and some turks and germans are really going at it in the streets. I don't know...walking around with the flags of your country shouting: "We're the fucking best!" is kind of...blech.)

[foundandlost1]

Yeah – it’s all pretty curious, if not laughable, isn’t it... <<< Btw – I couldn’t vote, cuz you left out that category – as I would not say “whoever feels like it” (“it” having caused endless harm). To participate in one’s particular heritage is one thing, but to claim is as ultimately superior is just berloody ridiculous. What a waste of time!

On the other hand, if I had been born an Aboriginal, for instance, I suppose I would be ‘proud’ (though that’s not quite the ‘right’ word) in that such cultures have managed quite well to live sustainably with and in their environments for literally tens of thousands of years. In my opinion, most any other “achievement” (a relative term), no matter where on the planet it stems from, pretty much falls under “Tunnel Vision & Hubris”…And God knows, we don’t need any more of EITHER of THOSE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
(Carl Sagan’s “Pale Blue Dot”)

[foundandlost1]

Heya Nobody...

Seems nothing but *crickets* are around... So I thought I'd punch things up a bit...when the Ultimate Superiority Complex inevitably lead to utter paranoia - The U.S. Congress passed Bill HR6304 on June 20...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MIJdmePn4lY

293 - FOR
129 - AGAINST

Big Brother has finally mastered the remnants of the constitution...

(Achtung)

[smorzando]

This topic's intrigued me, and I simply haven't replied because... I'm not really too sure where I lie on this matter. I'm all for patriotism... but I HATE it when people take it too far, and make assumptions based on it that are untrue.

smorz.

[foundandlost1]

This topic's intrigued me, and I simply haven't replied because... I'm not really too sure where I lie on this matter. I'm all for patriotism... but I HATE it when people take it too far, and make assumptions based on it that are untrue.

smorz.

But why?..."For Patriotism"...You - not exclusively - live in a place - that once held great and vast power (also not exclusively - and they all fell before, as they shall, after). But what was the cost...to others? What ongoing legacy was left - by those who conceded...and those who must rebuild from the aftermath...?

Who does it ultimately benefit (and ULTIMATELY for a mere speck of time here, on THIS speck of a planet) when one gains supposed supremacy - but are all-too-often merely legends in their own minds who frown upon everyone and everything else - subtley, or overtly? It serves no one - it never has...it never will...

This life and this world are not a game show - where someone, someplace, or some group will "get the Final Answer" and win the ultimate prize. This shit has been going on for millenia...and we all like to suppose (wherever we reside) that we've got all of humanity's infrustructure set up for the no-fail plan...so why do we keep failing??

I'm NOT from The States (not even in a former life, I'm pretty goddamned sure), but on that link above...one of the comments that struck me most, in the feedback below the video...is that no matter how "guided" or "MISguided" the reasons are that U.S. soldiers are fighting abroad - they BELIEVE they are to "defend democracy and freedom"...Only to come home, after their soul-wrenching and mind-numbing experiences...to find that the 4th Ammendment - once sacred - is now given over to covert (justified AND sanctioned) monitoring - of not only U.S. citizaens...but EVERYONE that communicates in any way, shape or form, with anyone therein (um, including retroactively! NO media source/telecommunication venue/service will be held accountable...for the past, or the present)

PHEW!! Sorry...

I'm tired...

:furious:

[Mr. Blocks]

Interesting topic, I had gone through this question and idea myself around a year ago, and I finally think I have found what it means to me.

I used to be proud to be British, to think of what it had achieved in the world, etc. That was before I really thought about it. To me, to be proud of something you personally did not take part just doesn't make much sense to me. I wasn't apart of any war, I didn't actively help this country do anything great. So I don't see why I would be proud of people doing this of whom I didn't personally know myself. I just happen to be born here, so other than that I don't have reason to be proud of being here, nor of it's past.

I'm not proud of my nationality, I really don't see why I would be. I don't support alot the people here do, again, I just happen to be born here.

I'm proud of my heritage, it dates back to where my own family came from, the people of which I am part of. I'm half Scottish/English. I'm not excessively proud, but I do like to know where I am and what it means to be where I am today.

It is just a great huge part of dividing people. It's something I don't like, as soon as you say "I am THIS" then you are suddenly stating that you are in a different group to something that isn't apart of it. You'd see examples of this everywhere, how we are all divided into many different groups, how everything has it's own little label that is thrown on to us each day so we can be separated from the rest. To be patriotic is one of those things that makes it so you WILL be putting yourself in a group with some people, and excluding the rest.

So I agree that is is not needed, not in the least. But of course it is one of those things that people will never stop to really think about, it's apart of their identity and it means so much (apparently) and they'll never see how it divides them.

I hate how I can be divided simply so easily, I don't see why I should be in a group with Jerry down the road simply because we are of the same nationality when Akhbed in Afghanistan is just as worthy of being someone I should not be divided away from.

[pagan1]

I feel some empathy for every living creature,and more especially for other Humans,and even though if the circumstance did arise I would probably feel motivated to defend the particular environment in which I find food and shelter,I feel no loyalty to the nation in which I live,other than the loyalty I feel to all life in general.For me to be asked to take the life of another Human Being either directly or indirectly through the support of some military proxy,I view as a criminal action that violates something far more real than any written code,since I believe that the precept not to unnecessarily take the life of one's own kind is written into our DNA,and that the propagation of erroneous and ignorant belief system's such as Religion,Nationalism and Racism are merely software hacks written to try and circumvent our hardwired intrinsic nature.

[JamesH]

from a philospohical standpoint you can divide this up into to two views.......
1) Cosmoploitanism
2) Communitarianism

the first basically believes in a national identity
while the second believes and supports state boundaries and the idea of nationalism....... before nationalism (in many peoples eyes) became more associated with racism

I personally believe that Nationalism is a good thing......It brings people together, but then again can also divide...........

[Mr. Blocks]

I feel some empathy for every living creature,and more especially for other Humans,and even though if the circumstance did arise I would probably feel motivated to defend the particular environment in which I find food and shelter,I feel no loyalty to the nation in which I live,other than the loyalty I feel to all life in general.For me to be asked to take the life of another Human Being either directly or indirectly through the support of some military proxy,I view as a criminal action that violates something far more real than any written code,since I believe that the precept not to unnecessarily take the life of one's own kind is written into our DNA,and that the propagation of erroneous and ignorant belief system's such as Religion,Nationalism and Racism are merely software hacks written to try and circumvent our hardwired intrinsic nature.

That was beautiful *weep*

[pagan1]

That was beautiful *weep*

We can metaphorically *weep* together...
Atheists Unite!

:)

[amberzak]

I have a certain amount of pride in my country, when it comes to things like the olympics and I see people working hard. but I also feel ashamed at some of the things us whites did. We went to America and persecuted the Native Americans for one thing.

I am so torn. There is so much to be proud of in being British. Stephen Fry, our Monarchy, The Beatles, BBC and all the programs they make. But there is so much we should be ashamed of too.

I clicked yes for being patriotic, because I know the national anthem, and I watch the Queens speech every Christmas, I celebrated the Golden Jubilee, and I do a lot of other patriotic things. But I do not take it too far, and I certainly do not think we are better than other people. In face I want to move away from here if I get the chance to.

[Gardenhead]

Us whites? Last time I checked we were a mult-ethnic society!

I know and absolutely hate the national anthem (it's ruddy terrible, not to mention boring), I don't believe our Monarchy is anything to be proud of per se, though I do have a soft spot for Prince Charles (excellent marmalade!) and the ever-terrifying Prince Philip.

I'm patriotic in a passive kind of way.

[amberzak]

Us whites? Last time I checked we were a mult-ethnic society!



Oh that came out completely the wrong way.

What I meant was it was mainly the whites who went out when we first learnt to sail who went to these other countries and killed and tortured them because we deemed them uncivilized.

It is not so much that I am embarrased to be English, more I am embarassed to be White. My ansestors have a lot to answer for. It doesn't help that I have found out the sort of things my ansesotors in particular did.

[Gardenhead]

I feel no guilt or pride for my ancestors; some of them may have a lot to answer for, but I don't.

Not the same things anyway.

[BenJohnson]

Patriotism, pride in nation, pride in your football team, etc has as much to answer for as religion as far as I am concerned. It is all so divisive. The ancient Romans were so proud of their city haven for murderers and the like they went out and slaughtered other nations to introduce them to their proud civilisation. The Greeks had previously done the same and the Eygptians, Assyrians, before the great civilisations local tribes had pride in themselves and killed other local tribes, before tribes it was families and so on.

The only things to be proud of are those that have attempted to heal the rifts and bring men together, there are precious few such occurences. Once man can get beyond the accidents of birth place and skin colour and take their place as part of a global community we are doomed to repeat the same futile mistakes.

[Gardenhead]

Don't be lumping patriotism with nationalism (or - for that matter - imperialism!) there. One may lead to the other if given the wrong mindset, but a bit of healthy patriotism never did anyone any harm.

And god, I detest football...

edit: Also, as nice an idea as a global community is, I fear the language barrier is far greater an obstacle than national pride!

[BenJohnson]

Patriotism = devotion for one's country and leads to people going to war for their country right or wrong, just another banging of the drum. 9/11 and American people are being patriotic and rushing off to attack another nation which may or may not be related. Not that America is different to any other country, England is just as bad, possibly worse in some ways.

[Gardenhead]

Patriotism entails defense, not conquest.

9/11 had little to do with country, and everything to do with religious and cultural beliefs, although admittedly these subjects can blur.

You can't warp the meaning of the word to encompass anything to do with anything mind you.

[BenJohnson]

How far does defense go? It seems that it can lead to conquest. Should you defend your country if it is in the wrong? It seems to me that patriotism leads to misguided views and therefore I will never be patriotic, nationalistic or anything similar. It is too limiting to view things in national groups.

[Gardenhead]

It seems to me that patriotism leads to misguided views

It can do of course, but so can any other way of thinking: religion, atheism, even pacifism. Patriotism is admirable in the right person, and it is the individual brain that defines the person after all. Being able to simultaneously embrace and rise above it is the test.

[k2hsharpe]

*edit: Also, as nice an idea as a global community is, I fear the language barrier is far greater an obstacle than national pride!*

we've rarely if ever lived as one
but the odds are shortening
that we'll die as one

[Ernie]

I voted for Patriotism because that is what made this country the free society it is today.

I can't believe the replies most of you people have made.

I can only describe you as sad, uneducated, misguided and deluded COWARDS.

Do you honestly believe that you would have the freedom you now whine about if it wasn't for past and present Patriots.

Take an hour, listen to a grandparent or an elderly person who will tell you of the incredible hardships they endured ON YOUR BEHALF, the suffering and cruelty that they went though was all BRAVELY FACED so that YOU can have THIS FREEDOM that you now seemingly don't ENJOY !

Many of my own family, from Great Grandparents, Grandparents and Uncles VOLUNTEERED to defend Great Britain and Europe in both World Wars FOR FREEDOM over the last century.

Do any of YOU even know what part, if any YOUR family played in resent History. Did they take a stand for freedom or sit back and wait to see who the winner would be !

The next time an enemy is invading YOUR country or threating YOUR freedom will YOU stand and be counted, or are you one of those that sneaks out of the back door quaking, a coward who will just follow blindly being a sad, uneducated, misguided and deluded WIMP !
__________________________________________________ ___

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

These words should strike a cord within EVERYONE who now lives in a free Society.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Why don't you negative posters take yourselves of to the Middle East or Central Africa and find out just how much FREEDOM you have there !

__________________________________________________ ___________

[Gardenhead]

Minus the rather bold slurs, you make a good point.

We have to understand both sides of the argument though, methinks.

[BenJohnson]

A valid point Ernie, when I read the accounts of the first and second world wars I find hard to believe that men went through such horrors and survived. I appluade the strength and bravery they showed to do that.

However I find the second world war a perfect example, if Hitler had not been able to play on the misguided patriotism of his nation then would he ever have risen to the power he had.

*Feels the flames rising and decides to keep quiet now* :)

[Ernie]

OK,
First and foremost, I apologize for any discourtesy I may have caused by my post.

Having grown up in a country in a constant state of civil war tends to make you Patriot to the nth degree !
I have seen bodies blown to pieces, parts of bodies in mangled bomb wreckage, people on FIRE, buildings exploding etc etc. I have been blown off my feet in an explosion and been shot at twice, Northern Ireland was not a nice place to grow up in.

About Hitler, yes, he used the disgruntled and poverty stricken Patriots of a beaten country for his own ends, That is why I added the words FOLLOW BLINDLY at the end of the post, in Hitler's case he created the Gestapo out of those wimps who didn't stand and be counted. The SS were fanatics, every country has them, but for the ordinary German Wehrmacht soldier, he, was doing his Patriotic duty for his country with God on his side as all if not most soldiers believe.

[BenJohnson]

Idealism against realism. Too easy to forget that people have lived and seen things that the rest of pray we never will. For me at least no discourtesy noticed it is a sensitive subject.

[Gardenhead]

The SS were fanatics, every country has them, but for the ordinary German Wehrmacht soldier, he, was doing his Patriotic duty for his country with God on his side as all if not most soldiers believe.

The difference is, there is a significant amount of evidence to suggest that a large amount of ordinary German soldiers went out of their way to cause deaths as painful and humiliating as possible to the Jews. See for example police battalion 101; a reserve battalion of normal German citizens who not only killed Jews on orders, but deliberately tortured them. In at least one case, they ignored the orders of Himmler to stop killing Jewish women.

It wasn't just the men either; several of these soldiers' wives were willingly present throughout a variety of atrocoties.

Hitler rose to power not only on nationalism, but on anti-semitism too.

Lest I stray too far from the subject however, I shall continue to stress that nationalism - though irrevocably linked to it - isn't quite the same as patriotism.

[Ladyday]

A very interesting thread. I'm not a fan of patriotism myself, but I can definately see how useful it is and has been. Personally though, I wouldn't say that nationalism and patriotism were leagues apart. I understand that they are two different things, but in my experience were you find one, you're bound to find the other.

[k2hsharpe]

"Do any of YOU even know what part, if any YOUR family played in resent History. Did they take a stand for freedom or sit back and wait to see who the winner would be ! "

My Dad was 16 year old when he became a stoker on the Northern Convoys. A stoker was a fuckawful thing to be in those days – dirty back breaking work shovelling coal in the bowels of a ship and a hard place to escape from as a ship went down. I knew he served as a stoker but I was near 50 year old when I found he served on the Northern Convoys, and I found out that out by accident. I asked him why he had never mentioned it, he told me it wasn't that important. I asked where his campaign medals were and he told me he didn't have them. He'd never bothered collecting them, he believed the average Londoner during the blitz was as brave as him, and just as deserving of a medal.

And by the way, my Granddad also served on the Northern Convoys. According to my Dad, his Dad was a 2 or 3 times survivor (I think it was 3x but I can't remember, and it isn't terribly important) – he was given a shore posting after the last time. I'm not sure if this was an acknowledgement that his luck couldn't last for ever or a suggestion that having 2(or 3) ships sunk from under one made one a jinx?

My Dad was a child when he served his country. Myself on the other hand, never served my country. The war for my time was the Vietnam War, a nasty undeclared conflict much like the Iraq war of today. I never volunteered for the war, and fortunately my number was never chosen for the draft. If I'd been drafted I would have gone and would have fought but I wasn't drafted, instead I protested against the war. My Dad didn't understand how I felt and he didn't agree with my opinions or actions. But he never criticised me that I can remember – he believed he fought so I could have the freedom to choose not to fight, much has he disliked my choice. Here is a link to an Aussie song about the war of my time.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=n7TXBuVUQJw&feature=related

The writer / singer didn't serve in Viet Nam, but my understanding is that he wrote the lyrics from stories told to him by Vets and published / sang it only with their OK. I believe it fairly accurately reflects their experiences and feelings about the war.

My youngest has never served his country either. The war for his time is the Iraq war. He disagrees with this war and detests Australia's involvement in it. As I do. We protested against it together down in Sydney.


"I can only describe you as sad, uneducated, misguided and deluded COWARDS."

Well, what can I say, except you are so wrong on all of them except for 'COWARD'. I've always considered myself coward, fortunately I've never been tested on a field of conflict so I don't know just how big a coward I am. But my son on the other hand is no coward. Whilst the war for his time is the Iraq war, the conflict he has chosen for his time is the environmental one. He has just spent some time at the Timber Blockades down in Tassie. Our eucalypts are amongst the most efficient carbon sinks of any trees in the world. They are cutting down old growth forest and selling it cheaply for wood pulp. Several years ago they were getting 10's of dollars a cubic metre for the wood pulp, this for wood that was worth 100's of dollars a cubic metre as cabinet timber. The wood pulp was being turned into paper for us to wipe our noses and arses with – not an effective use of such an important resource. Here is a link to an article about timber workers attacking a blockade camp recently.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/10/24/18546139.php

My son didn't tell me which of the blockades he was camping at. He didn't think it important. A friend of his told me he was at the one in the Florentine at the time of the attack. I've never met her nor heard of her but she called to let me know he was safe. She thought it was important. These protest camps are usually isolated in the bush and are sometimes attacked by timber workers who come with axe and petrol and machete and firearms. Beatings of protesters are not unknown. The police tend to be a tad tardy in investigating these. Gunns pretty much owns the state (it's alleged). I am so proud of my son, I think he is incredibly brave. Yet he seems to have most of the characteristics of those you call "deluded COWARDS" Leonidas.

An interesting thing about the responses of the timber workers / police / government to the timber blockades. The violence and apparent official condonement of that violence is often justified on 'patriotic' grounds. By blockading the logging of old growth forest, apparently the protesters are destroying an economy, are enemies of the State, are deserving of all that they get. This is the thing when patriotism becomes debased. It is used to justify vilification and violence against those that disagree with the 'Patriot'.

Here in Australia we have just suffered through over 10 years of a 'Patriotic' government. The good thing about this was that we came to love and honour ANZAC Day in a way that we hadn't for perhaps 40 or more years. The bad thing about it was the Sedition laws (amongst many other bad things). Sedition has made it a crime to protest against any war where Australian troops are serving in the field. To be caught at a protest and arrested could mean indefinite detention without any recourse to normal law. If for example my son were to be arrested at a anti Iraq war demonstration and charged with Sedition he would be allowed to call me. He pretty much would only be allowed to let me know he had been arrested, that he was OK, that I wasn't allowed to know where he was or what he had been charged with, and that he didn't know when he would be back. If I was silly enough to guess he had been arrested for sedition and tell his Mum then I could go to gaol for 5 years. If his Mum told anyone that he had been arrested for Sedition, she could also go to gaol for 5 years. And so one. A few year ago an American peace activist came out to Australia to stress that demonstrations against the Iraq war must be peaceful, must not under any circumstances be violent. He was arrested, kept imprisoned for several days then deported back to America. He was not allowed to know what he had been charged with. His lawyer was not allowed to know what he had been charged with. This is the ugly face of Patriotism today Leonidas.

Looking at your profile I notice the war for your time was the Falklands War. I assume that feeling the way you do you may have served there. I admire both your commitment and your courage if this is the case Leonidas. That you don't mention it in your posting means I must also admire your modesty. But that doesn't mean I agree with you in any way at all. I don't. Not a bit. To be honest, the intolerance of the righteous these days frightens me not a little. I fear an uncertain and ugly future for my kids, my grandchild. And Patriotism is not going to make it any less uncertain or less ugly in any way that I can envisage.

I am reminded of the nurse Edith Cavell. On the night before her execution by the Germans in 1915 she said "I want my friends to know that I willingly give my life for my country. I have no fear nor shirking. I have seen death so often that it is not strange or fearful to me." She is also alleged to have said on the eve of her execution "Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone." A hero of mine Leonidas.

PS I may have unintentionally misled you Leonidas. I have a feeling that were my son to be arrested for sedition he would not be allowed to tell me he's been arrested. Only that he is safe and that I am not allowed to know where he is or when he will return. Our previous government used patriotic rhetoric to get us to give up our rights and allow these laws to be passed, manufacturing a false crisis playing on our fears of imminent terrorist threat. Afterwards the Federal Police admitted there had been no change to the level of terrorist threat in the previous 3 years. But at the time they were silent. You just have to love Patriotism. It takes us to so many interesting places.

[Gardenhead]

Well, that much is clear. I just mean to say that for someone of sane mind, the first should never have to lead the latter.

It's an unfortunate state of things, but I think that individual philosophy plays a large part in where you stand here. I wouldn't blame patriotism for the deeds committed in the name of nationalism; one's existence shouldn't damn the other, even if they are linked.

You could easily draw comparisons with religion and extremism here, although my views on that are somewhat different; and for another thread =p

edit: this was in reply to Janaya's post, not k2sharpe's.

And as a side note, it is very possible to be a righteous coward or a brave monster.

[Ladyday]

Yeah, i think you're right. Individual philosophy is the crux of the matter really.

[Gardenhead]

Saving my blushes >_>

[Ladyday]

Hahaha

[Ernie]

Patriotism
a devoted love, support, and defense of one’s country; national loyalty.
_______________________________________________
Nationalism
1. the spirit or aspirations of a country.
2. a devotion to the interests of one’s own country.
3. a desire for national advancement.
4. the policy of asserting the interest of one’s own nation, as separate from the interest of another nation and the common interest of all nations.
__________________________________________________ ___


To K2Hshape: Thank you for your reply Kevin, I salute and applaud, not only your Grandfather and father but yourself and especial your son, who to me is a Patriot for taking a stand in the defense of his country in the important cause of conservation, he is putting himself on the front line in the defence of what he believes in.
You yourself said if you had been drafted, you would have gone to fight, that in its self tells me that you are no coward, but you did not get drafted and protested against that war instead and that is not an unpatriotic act, if I'm honest, I would probably have stood by your side as I disagree with the Iraq war also, not with the army who are doing their duty, but with the Governments who ram stamed into this conflict without a second thought and expected the World to follow.
Members of my family also served on the Northern Convoys, sadly not all came home from what has been described as the most difficult missions of WW11. Huge parts of Belfast were also destroyed by the Germans because of the shipyard and many lives were lost. My father was eleven in 1939 so did not go to war although he was Proud of me for making a Patriotic stand in 1980-85, at home and abroad.

Patriotism is not about attack, it is about defense !

The "I can only describe you as sad, uneducated, misguided and deluded COWARDS" statement, was directed at those with the 'No sense of pride in One's country just because they were born there attitude' and also those with the 'mob mentality' who are not brave or Patriotic enough to stand alone, that was well described by Gardenhead in his anti-semitic post (number 27). I have seen this with my own eyes here in N.Ireland, atrocities carried out by 'ordinary people, men and women' in the heat of the moment that is created by the COWARDS who, from the background, 'egg' people on to do such things.

ernie

NB: Hitler rose to power on a wave of Nationalism by creating jobs and the restoration of National pride, the anti-semitism really started when the country began running out of money and the wealthy Jews were an easy target. That is what I was taught Jonathan. Do you know that Switzerland is still refusing to return Jewish goods and money, even when deposit books are produced to this day ?

Lastly: I am a Patriot of the United Kingdom as this is where I consider to be mine and my families home, even though I was actually born in South Africa.

[Tommy Walker]

I voted for the latter. For me, I am born and growing up in Denmark but I am not at all a Dane in my mind. I've always felt alienated in this culture, it's very conform, and there isn't many getaways for a mutt like me. I've never been proud of my country or language or anything either; in fact I'm just wishing to move to another country and live there the rest of my days, which seems to get closer and closer as my work might open up branches there.

I understand that certain countries own a lot of patriotism, and I admire those who love their country and background mainly because this is something I'll never experience. But life's too short to point fingers and spit at those who like it, it's a state of mind.

[Gardenhead]

Wealthy Jews were indeed an easy target (thanks to a general feeling of sympathy towards anti-semitic ideals throughout a large proportion of the world), but the Holocaust did not occur simply because of roots in monetary needs.

It was the Final Solution to the Jewish Question; the fact that property could be appropriated was a healthy bonus. The millions upon millions of Jewish dead - including women and children - were not killed because Hitler needed money. In fact, a large amount of money was diverted from the war to aid the destruction of the Jewish people, inside and outside of extermination camps.

Even forced labour clearly wasn't carried out in an economical fashion; the 'workers' were not given enough sustenance to survive.

A haunting fact however, is that at the end of the war, hundreds of warehouses remained full to the brim of the hair of Jewish people, cut off before they were incinerated, to be used in the textile industry. Gold teeth were pulled and melted down too: it is undeniable that Germany did gain capital from the Final Solution (in some stages at least, I am unaware of the overall figures), but it was by no means it's main focus. If anything, it was an excuse.

[Ernie]

Hi Tommy,
I don't want to say I feel sorry for you, I think that would be condescending and patronizing of me. If you feel alienated within your country of birth, uncomfortable with the culture and have no pride in your nationality, then by all means try to find a place where you will find the life you are looking for, or, you could try to change the aspects of what makes you feel the way you do.
I wish you only the very best for your future.
You ended your post by saying " it's a state of mind", I agree, not everyone is in love with their country, your gave an intelligent explanation to the reasons behind how you feel and I respect you for that.

ernie
______________________________________________

Hi Jonathan,
I agree with around 95% of what you say about the Final Solution although it was not solely directed, but mainly directed at the Jewish population, it also included those of different race, colour and creed, like Gypsies and homosexuals to the Polish and most other none Aryan nationalities.

I do agree entirely with what you say about the 'enslaved under nourished workforce' but for me the worst was that Monster Dr Mangala and his experiments on Jewish women and children, the whole Nazi ideal was rotten to the core and this new wave neo-nazi sad, uneducated, misguided and deluded COWARDS should be culled asap.

This latest outbreak of Hideous Nationalism in Russia may only be the start of something much worse.

ernie

NB: I have seen war, been to hell and back and am no saint by any means, still, if an animal attacks a human, it is hunted and killed, the same punishment should be metered out to these so called humans who act in an even more diabolical way.
I would be only to pleased to help.

[Gardenhead]

Hi Jonathan,
I agree with around 95% of what you say about the Final Solution although it was not solely directed, but mainly directed at the Jewish population, it also included those of different race, colour and creed, like Gypsies and homosexuals to the Polish and most other none Aryan nationalities.


I am aware of this, it just didn't come up when I was writing, perhaps ashamedly. I hold my hands up there, I wasn't deliberately omitting them.


I do agree entirely with what you say about the 'enslaved under nourished workforce' but for me the worst was that Monster Dr Mangala and his experiments on Jewish women and children, the whole Nazi ideal was rotten to the core and this new wave neo-nazi sad, uneducated, misguided and deluded COWARDS should be culled asap.

I don't think I have the stomach, knowledge or experience to discuss what I think the worst thing about the Holocaust was, but 'The Angel Of Death' would indeed come high up; I've even started writing a poem about his experiments on twins.

I'm going to break from you in your seeming embracement of the death penalty. However that, perhaps, is for another forum topic.

[Mr. Blocks]

I feel no guilt or pride for my ancestors; some of them may have a lot to answer for, but I don't.

Not the same things anyway.

I agree with this, was my thought exactly. Amber, I don't see why you should feel anything for what our ancestors did, you played no part in what happened in the past. It actually has nothing to do with you, besides the idea that you share genes with people that did exist back then. But for you as a person, you haven't done a thing.

I used to know the mentality that you have, I've come to believe that it doesn't make sense to me any more. I wouldn't expect my great, great, great grandson to feel guilt over something I've done now.

How far does defense go? It seems that it can lead to conquest. Should you defend your country if it is in the wrong? It seems to me that patriotism leads to misguided views and therefore I will never be patriotic, nationalistic or anything similar. It is too limiting to view things in national groups.

"Going on the offencive is the best defence" as they say.. so really, we already know that the UK & US are ready to invade other countries to upload their defence. Hah.. a war that is of no real merit. Children and women are being bombed by us, and people are still managing to call this just? It angers me that people are so pathetic as to not look the other way and see what these other countries are saying to us, what if, it is our own country that is the evil doer? It's not impossible is it? To be patriotic is to ignore their pleas. We don't need to defend ourselves against the Iraqis, they have no WOMD and it's been proven that they have none, we found nothing yet we fight on. We are doing the governments deeds, it isn't in the interest of the country, or it if is, then I don't think humans should be paying their lives in the interests of any country. With one being patriotic, is to see that what they are doing is good, is for a cause, even if they don't fully understand the cause because their trust is with their country.

If your patriotic to one country, you automatically care less about other countries against your own. With this, if people are patriotic, they are far easier to convince to go to war. How are you suppose to convince a non-patriot to go to war, a war like the recent Iraq? People need to do a bit of research and see where the lies lead us. If your going to be lied to and play yourself into something as petty as being "Patriotic" over a piece of land and dividing yourself from other pieces of land then good for you. But I don't think it's a great solution, in fact, it's not a solution and is no different from the mentioned history of humans. Tribe vs tribe, country vs country. With patriotic people around, those scenarios will not disappear.

My overall point is being this, if you are going to choose to be patriotic, then be one of the earth, of all humans, of all nations. I refuse to dedicate my life to a single nation, I will not be led to war on false thoughts and kill people just like me, only of a different nation.

The winners write the history books. If the winner is wrong and evil, they aren't going to write that in the books now are they? Think about it a little more.

Patriotism

The "I can only describe you as sad, uneducated, misguided and deluded COWARDS" statement, was directed at those with the 'No sense of pride in One's country just because they were born there attitude' and also those with the 'mob mentality' who are not brave or Patriotic enough to stand alone, that was well described by Gardenhead in his anti-semitic post (number 27).


I found your way with words quite old and ignorant.

I'm not sad.
I'm not uneducated.
I'm not misguided.
I'm not deluded.

As for being a coward, that's a real nice hypothesis you managed to spew with only reading someone forum post. It's actually based on a forum post, thus, making you the most ignorant I've seen here yet. I could be a coward, I have not actually been in a situation large enough to know of it.

I voted for Patriotism because that is what made this country the free society it is today.

I can't believe the replies most of you people have made.

I can only describe you as sad, uneducated, misguided and deluded COWARDS.

Do you honestly believe that you would have the freedom you now whine about if it wasn't for past and present Patriots.

Take an hour, listen to a grandparent or an elderly person who will tell you of the incredible hardships they endured ON YOUR BEHALF, the suffering and cruelty that they went though was all BRAVELY FACED so that YOU can have THIS FREEDOM that you now seemingly don't ENJOY !

Many of my own family, from Great Grandparents, Grandparents and Uncles VOLUNTEERED to defend Great Britain and Europe in both World Wars FOR FREEDOM over the last century.

Do any of YOU even know what part, if any YOUR family played in resent History. Did they take a stand for freedom or sit back and wait to see who the winner would be !

The next time an enemy is invading YOUR country or threating YOUR freedom will YOU stand and be counted, or are you one of those that sneaks out of the back door quaking, a coward who will just follow blindly being a sad, uneducated, misguided and deluded WIMP !
__________________________________________________ ___

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

These words should strike a cord within EVERYONE who now lives in a free Society.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Why don't you negative posters take yourselves of to the Middle East or Central Africa and find out just how much FREEDOM you have there !

__________________________________________________ ___________

I'm going to take bits out and comment on them, hoping you can still follow this, not sure how it's going to look:

"Do you honestly believe that you would have the freedom you now whine about if it wasn't for past and present Patriots."

Well, no, I don't believe that. Where did anyone say they did? I don't see the relevance in what your saying there, I have to be patriotic because others were before me? Times change, and people change with them. Being patriotic is an old concept of which I don't believe is the best for the survival of humans on this planet, it's the sort of thing that will end this planet, actually.

"Take an hour, listen to a grandparent or an elderly person who will tell you of the incredible hardships they endured ON YOUR BEHALF, the suffering and cruelty that they went though was all BRAVELY FACED so that YOU can have THIS FREEDOM that you now seemingly don't ENJOY !"

You take an hour and look up the innocent victims from the Iraqi war right now, just take a look and tell me what the patriots are doing now? Has it come to such a thing? Where we invade another country, simply murder, murder, murder until we get what we want? How about you listen to the victims story, because people of your own nation are destroying them. There is more to the world than your own people, people that are not of your own nation deserve to be heard as well. (See the division thing playing here?)

"Do any of YOU even know what part, if any YOUR family played in resent History. Did they take a stand for freedom or sit back and wait to see who the winner would be !"

My grandfather served in the second world war, he was a navy man. All I know from that is that his boat was hit twice by a German ship. He never feared for his life, because he somehow knew he wasn't going to die. He saw his friends die beside him. He survived the war and unfortunately died when I was just two years old. Else yes, I would have liked to hear what he could have told me. I respect people that will fight with the thought that they are helping the nation and it's generations. I still don't see how it should make me patriotic.

Though of course, I don't like how your throwing the "Did anyone in your family even enter the war?" thing you did. You shouldn't make people feel as though they shouldn't say things base on what their families have done. It's interesting, but would you have judged me and my opinions with more anger if my family hadn't been in the war? If so, then I believe it is you that is sad.

"The next time an enemy is invading YOUR country or threating YOUR freedom will YOU stand and be counted, or are you one of those that sneaks out of the back door quaking, a coward who will just follow blindly being a sad, uneducated, misguided and deluded WIMP !"

The UK has nothing to fear at the moment. As far as being invaded goes.. it won't happen, I just can't see it. Nuclear weapons are dangerous things.. we'd blow up before we gave in to invaders. If we were actually invaded, as oppose to invading other countries, then I believe I would fight, not for my country, but for the people.

I have to say though, I absolutely LOATHE how you label people. It's quite disturbing. You ought to respect what people have to say, even if you fight it angering yourself. Just because someone didn't want to fight in the war, does not make them a coward. People have the right to not fight, it doesn't automatically make them a coward, and as you ignorantly put it, neither "sad, uneducated, misguided, deluded wimp".

It's people like you that strengthen my need to want people to be one, and not divided into many nations that have their own best interests at heart, and everyone can follow on.

Like I said, be a patriot to earth, and not to just one piece of it. Live together and not with a select few. Live in piece, without needless greed and hurt. War can be avoided, the people have the power to stop them, but if your going to let those in government power control your every action, and play on the "These people will do anything to "defend" their country" nonsense.. then your the true losers here, best of it all is, you don't even see it.

I will finish with, I respect what you have to say, and I do apologise for being as blunt as I have, but it's only human to be angered when you read something that opposes you in such a way (Like how other posts, perhaps including my earlier post, have upset you and you reacted in the way you did) that makes you want to be crude and to the point. I believe I have the right attitude for my generation, and I believe if everyone had my attitude, then war would not happen like it has in the past. I believe if everyone keeps your attitude, wars are far easier to begin.

And to avoid any confusion, I am not ungrateful for what people in our past has done. Surely not, to give your own life for something you believe in, is something I would hold with a high respect. I merely pointed out that I see no need to be patriotic about it.

[Ernie]

Well, you are entitled to speak openly of your own opinion's and dreams Morph Phoenix,
we do live in a FREE country after all :D

My deepest respects to your Grandfather, both of my Grandfathers were died by the time I was brought back to where I call home.

ernie

[Mr. Blocks]

Well, you are entitled to speak openly of your own opinion's and dreams Morph Phoenix,
we do live in a FREE country after all :D

My deepest respects to your Grandfather, both of my Grandfathers were died by the time I was brought back to where I call home.

ernie

Indeed, my grandfather fought for freedom. He fought so I wouldn't have to fight in the future. To fight now is to destroy their original goal I think. Being wiser defeats those being stronger.

To quote "The wise men wonder, whilst the strong men die".

If one is to think of another as weak and unworthy, just because this one does not think that to kill another fellow being, based on location (pretty much) then we are truely opposing each other each.

And you sir, are also free to say what you will.

And be sure, for those that did fight, I can respect. And I can't deny that I respect those that didn't fight as well.

[Gardenhead]

God, I was a prat in early 2009.

[Nobody]

I'd hate to swoop in and bring up something new, but I'd also hate to open a new thread just for this.

Dual-citizenship...Something to be proud of?

Yes? No?

I personally am part german, part american (mixed with, Irish, Italian, French, Spanish and a tad bit of Indian (American Indian, I mean)) And I'm quite proud of that...being unique, and what not...But...does that fall under patriotism?...I mean being all these different things.

[Henry P]

I think that patriotism is a positive thing, and takes many forms, from the heroism and bravery shown in war-time to the sincere desire for life to be fairer and better for everyone in the country we share. Having said that, I also like other countries, like Poland (the land of my ancestors) Italy and Israel. I've never been to the USA but I feel I like it from a distance.

[Antipodi]

Sadly Patriotism is a flawed state of mind it is religion without a spiritual backup like a mind without a concience...

Patriotism is great weapon used by many unscrupulous power jockies to gather up our young people to become cannon fodder...

A very dangerous version of patriotism is the new version that incorporate consumerism or loyalty band enducement...

Patriotism is about blindly following with using logic ...
ie the sacrifice of the few for the good of the many....
Friendly fire...
Post war syndrome
Killing of innocent women and children
Vengence killing
Religious hatred of all denoinations

No my friends by all means defend your family and friends but not a nation who seduces you...incarcerates you...cons you ..and keeps you under the thumb...and if you think that doesnt happen ...maybe you should take another look after you take off your illogical blindfold and listen to your inner voice

[Mr. Blocks]

I spot a somewhat ridiculous generalisation, not entirely excused by bracketed text!

Based on what Earnie was saying? What I said managed to get my point across.

And so, if your not willing to at least explain what your thoughts are, then I find your post to be really irritating.

And I ask you to forgive my irritant behavior, it isn't entirely created by your post. But your post is a kind that is annoying, when nothing more is said but "This is what I think, no reason as to why will be added".

I'd hate to swoop in and bring up something new, but I'd also hate to open a new thread just for this.

Dual-citizenship...Something to be proud of?

Yes? No?

I personally am part german, part american (mixed with, Irish, Italian, French, Spanish and a tad bit of Indian (American Indian, I mean)) And I'm quite proud of that...being unique, and what not...But...does that fall under patriotism?...I mean being all these different things.

Duel Citizenship. So you are able to gain both a German and American passport? Able to live in both countries if you want? Is that what you mean?

Because I hope you aren't referring to heritage, since American Heritage dates back only 300 or so years, whereas the rest of what you said (German, Irish, French) would be better suited, since being an American is to state your Nationality, not your heritage.

And no, it's not patriotic to be proud of being part of all of those. I'm proud to be half English, half Scottish (My nationality is British). But I wouldn't say I was patriotic about it. It's not the same thing.

Sadly Patriotism is a flawed state of mind it is religion without a spiritual backup like a mind without a concience...

Patriotism is great weapon used by many unscrupulous power jockies to gather up our young people to become cannon fodder...

A very dangerous version of patriotism is the new version that incorporate consumerism or loyalty band enducement...

Patriotism is about blindly following with using logic ...
ie the sacrifice of the few for the good of the many....
Friendly fire...
Post war syndrome
Killing of innocent women and children
Vengence killing
Religious hatred of all denoinations

No my friends by all means defend your family and friends but not a nation who seduces you...incarcerates you...cons you ..and keeps you under the thumb...and if you think that doesnt happen ...maybe you should take another look after you take off your illogical blindfold and listen to your inner voice

I love it.

[Nobody]

Duel Citizenship. So you are able to gain both a German and American passport? Able to live in both countries if you want? Is that what you mean?

Because I hope you aren't referring to heritage, since American Heritage dates back only 300 or so years, whereas the rest of what you said (German, Irish, French) would be better suited, since being an American is to state your Nationality, not your heritage.

And no, it's not patriotic to be proud of being part of all of those. I'm proud to be half English, half Scottish (My nationality is British). But I wouldn't say I was patriotic about it. It's not the same thing.




I am one eighteenth native american (in case that didn't seem clear). And I already have both passes.

I am not proud of it, but I'm glad that it opens so many doors to me.

[Ian The Poet]

I am fiercely patriotic, as one born in this country if I could I would fight for it, unfortunately I am now to old to join up. Once when I was younger I tried, only to fail the medical. Up the British!!:1st:

[marty101]

patriotism- like

[Boddyaxes]

I consider, what is it very interesting theme. I suggest all to take part in discussion more actively.

[Jermac]

I will state this without apology of any kind: The United States of America is the freest, most liberal, most generous, most creative country on the face of the earth--and that has ever existed. If you don't believe that, you need to read and study history.

[Gardenhead]

I will state this without apology of any kind: The United States of America is the freest, most liberal, most generous, most creative country on the face of the earth--and that has ever existed. If you don't believe that, you need to read and study history.

Genocide notwithstanding, right?

I certainly agree that America is a great country, but blimey - the most liberal? It's shot through with biblical conservatism, ignorance and prejudice. It's home to the prestigious Creation Museum, where vegetarian Tyrannosaurus Rex gambols gleefully with human children; it's a country where the top 1% of the population owns more than the bottom 90% put together, giving it easily the highest level of inequality amongst all of the rich nations; it's home to a pseudo-libertarian population that time after time will vote against healthcare reform, leaving its poorer citizens financially and physically crippled. I'm hardly anti-American - I love the country, and I think it is in many ways to be admired. But to laud it above all others like you have is, I think, both unfair and incorrect.

I'm not a fan of patriotism (though this hasn't always been the case) beyond the requisite natural gladness one feels if one is lucky enough to live in a comfortable area. It's essentially a form of selective altruism; we need to learn to think on a universal scale, rather than a national one.

edit: Can you honestly say you'd be espousing the same things about America if you were born elsewhere?

[Jermac]

I stand by what I stated without apology--because it's true.

[Gardenhead]

Oh come now, you have to do better than that; you can't expect to be taken seriously without even attempting to justify your viewpoint. No matter how many times you assert that what you say is 'true', you cannot make it so. That's the way of the dictator and the bigot.

[Personable]

Sometimes satire just writes itself.

[Jermac]

Just read and study history--please.

[Personable]

Mayhaps the US was the best country. Even if that were the case, it has little to do with the present and does nothing to strengthen your argument. Nobody lives in history, even though many would like to.

Generosity--please.

[Gardenhead]

Just read and study history--please.

I'm sorry, but this is not good enough. Accusing your opponent of ignorance without basis or example is nothing more than - again - assertion. You do your country a disservice and dishonesty by creating a deity of it.

[Jermac]

I have no "opponent" in this, and how I am I accusing anyone of ignorance?

I can see where this is going though, and I refuse to go any further with it. When threads and posts begin resorting to name-calling, personal attacks, and personal insults, I simply stop and go on to something else. I refuse to get personal. So goodbye as far as this thread is concerned. I hope you have a happy life.

[Gardenhead]

how I am I accusing anyone of ignorance?


Just read and study history--please.

Et voila.

I'm not 'getting personal', I'm criticizing your stance on patriotism, and your method of argument. If you refuse to even debate the issue then so be it, but don't you dare try and take the moral high ground by dodging the subject. I won't be bullied.

[Jermac]

If I wanted to really bully you, you would know it, believe me. You don't know what bullying is--you have no idea--you haven't got a clue. It's not worth the time or energy. So to hell with it. And you know what you can do with your next comment. I don't have to tell you. So keep living in the past--and goodnight, sweet prince.

[Personable]

So keep living in the past

Said the guy who's appealing only to history.

Also, how can people talk to you without getting personal? It's a conversation between persons and about personal beliefs.

[Jermac]

whatever...get over it...get on with your life

[magic]

Having grown up in a country in a constant state of civil war tends to make you Patriot to the nth degree!

When I was a kid I took a lot of pride in being British, so much so it led me to the resentment of ever considering myself as Irish. As a six year old the explanations given to me for Omagh and other atrocities, well they were due to the IRA, the Catholics, Sinn Fein… and the Irish.

However, after studying Irish history in more detail and particularly the events that led to the creation of our little political state of mind, I’ve realised a few things (apologies in advance if you also have studied it and I appear patronising, or if I do not explain it in great enough detail). But basically my point is generally speaking in the early 1900′s nobody had a problem with being British and Irish Patriots. Indeed, even Arthur Griffith’s policies for the very unpopular creation of Sinn Fein in 1905 still recognised the King as a head of state in some diluted form, realising the safeguards of maintaining a friendship with the Crown and it’s forces.

I agree nevertheless that the Irish Civil War in 1922 is what caused the patriotism split either side, as a republic was sought for and an oath to the Crown rejected by a minority of Irish nationalists (a piece of history the Republic keeps quiet about to this day after the shameful events that led to it’s creation). Yet this does not diminish my view in support of Michael Collins, the IRA and the new Free State which achieved the devolution of Home Rule power that the majority of Irishmen had desired for so long and needed nationalism and abstentionism to finally achieve (due to an equally shameful creation of a Northern Fascist state).

I know we don’t live in the 1900′s any more, and I do still wear a Northern Ireland football shirt with a sense of pride. However, the Ulster banner represents my nationality as much as a tricolour. And yes, the Union Jack I wrapped around myself one 12th day not long after Omagh still sits in the corner of my room, but it’s the flag of St. Patrick in it which represents my nationality. And like the orange that still exists in the tricolour, my dual patriotism does not exist any more, so alas, I’m unattached.

To put into present context, when I went on a road trip with some friends around the whole of Ireland last summer I felt Irish, yet the British name on a northern driving licence will always still suggest otherwise to a couple of bouncers. Indeed, it seems I can feel more at home on a trip to London for the day. However, when I go to England for Uni and feel so British with my passport, my accent will scream a foreign country and therefore I’ll be dubbed a Paddy.

To conclude, fuck patriotism. I cannot take pride in a thing that I have not achieved and to achieve a United Ireland under the Crown, well, history taught me it’s an impossibility. I hope I find home in England, or maybe some other country in the future, but there’s nothing Great about clinging onto Britain any more. So, for now I’ve filed for divorce, realising the safeguards of maintaining a friendship with the Crown and it’s forces (just in case those Nazi’s do turn up again).

[Mr. Blocks]

I will state this without apology of any kind: The United States of America is the freest, most liberal, most generous, most creative country on the face of the earth--and that has ever existed. If you don't believe that, you need to read and study history.

No country is free. We are all bound by laws that didn't exist for us until the moment we were born. As just a small example of this warp you live in.

There is no need for anyone to ask for an apology from you, I am merely surprised people had taken the time to even reply to you.

As I have here, heh :D

----

Majick, I recently moved to the republic of Ireland, from my home country of England. for me, this place is much more fitting for me as a person, quite a peaceful place.

I feel for the people here as I do for people anywhere, I am not bound by my British identity.

And so, as you said.. fuck patriotism. I think it is something most people find they agree on at some point in their lives, but only if they study the thought enough.

[Alfie]

I'm only ever patriotic when the football world cup's on. But oh how Engalnd sucked this time round. Still, a pub-atmosphere is epic at the world cup, flags and cheering. Boo-yah! Oh, and BBQs, can't forget the burgers and baps all in the name of St. George.

Lame, I know. xD

[Captain Cosine]

First post here :)

Um. Yes, I think Patriotism is quite idiotic. I could go through every reason, but it would take far too long. In order to explain any of my beliefs I would have to go off on a tangent and it would go through a slew of topics in order for anyone to understand, and frankly, I'm just too lazy lol.

One thing I will say: Why identify yourself by the location you live? We are are terrestrials, that is what I would choose to identify myself as; a resident of Earth.

I also believe that as long as we are living under one government, we are not free. We are restricted to do certain things. Maybe the majority of people agree with the laws, but it's restriction nonetheless. The government dictates the norms, and once you stray beyond them you face either excommunication and/or isolation (prison). What the government claims are "rights" are nothing more than privileges, because they can take them away and alter them at any time. However, regardless of what anyone tells you, you ARE free. You will always be able to do whatever you want. Yes, some people will disagree and if the majority is against you, then kiss your freedom goodbye, but you can still do whatever you want. And that's the way I think things should be. True freedom has no boundaries, no laws, no regulations.

You can say that we should be patriotic because generations before us were and gave us the "freedom" we have now, but just because someone did something before me doesn't mean I have to sit here and settle for less than I want. Every step of the way in history, more and more freedom has been coming to light in certain areas, we have no reason to stop now. I would be doing whatever I felt like, regardless of which country I lived in, so don't tell me people fought for my freedom, we have always been free, just too scared to do what we wanted to do.

I end with this quote, George Carlin said: "Personally, when it comes to rights, I think one of two things is true. I think either we have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all. Personally I lean towards unlimited rights, I feel for instance I have the right to do anything I please, BUT! If I do something you don’t like I think you have the right to kill me. So where are you gonna find a fairer fucking deal than that? So the next time some asshole says to you “I have the right to my opinion.” You say, “oh yeah? Well I have the right to my opinion and my opinion is you have no right to your opinion!” then shoot the fuck and walk away…" :D