Personable
28-01-2010, 03:46 PM
There is something older than and prior to the subject object split (the humanities or the persons over here and the world over there). But there's never been a person who hasn't also already been in the world. There isn't a thing called the world that the person is also there in addition to. If you try to divide from what you think is just in the world, you say: "ok, there is everything in the world and then there's just what I know." You can't really draw that line. Everything that you think of as real, it all exists in your mind. Now, does it have a reality beyond your mind? Yes, but that's just you saying it.
You can't get out of the fact that consciousness is the reality in which reality come home to roost. That's why it's seems like the universe began with our birth. How are time and consciousness related? This is the question I would ask the robust atheists. I want to hear those people tell me what time is, how time is related to consciousness and how those two are related to reality.
Because I hear people dismiss all notions that could be called a divine ground of being (to me that would be an impersonal god, but does recognise the problem of self-relation; something more Spinoza-ist, more deist, more Stoical). There is room for a recognition of a divine ground, but makes no recourse to any of the new age stuff and doesn't get caught in the sort of dogmatic individualism seen in some of the current trends. Trends like this atheism thing and the people idiotically named neo-Darwinians are just a construction of self-serving believes of the now-taken-for-granted individual that eclipsed a fundamental problem. The problem of dreamless sleepers. We are places and moments of an earth which recesses back into dreamless sleep and then wakes up. And there's always a co-given phenomena of world and self in these trends. Again there's never a self, independent of the world and there's never a world that's there . You try to use a word for what's there, independent of our consciousness, but that's just us doing that. I think there's a profound mystery. It's called our being. The mystery of the cosmos is the mystery of who we are. We are the self-aware cosmos.
You are a place and moment of everything that has ever existed and ever will. You are that which you are seeking to find. You couldn't be more relevant to your world. Your world is what is constructed of you. The problem is how to get out of this ego-attachment of narcissism, the disease of concern with oneself for getting that self and world - as object. That's a derivative phenomena. There's something older than it, prior to it.
Many of the existentialists writers, if you like them or not, people like Sartre, like Heidegger; these guys thought that they had discovered the science of consciousness, I mean Husserl said "We are the true positivists!". They thought they had figured the science of consciousness out and discovered this concept called "intentionality"... The science has discovered that there is something prior to the I'm-over-here-and-the-world's-over-there. There is a kind of ongoing set of relatedness that is the temporal clearing... When you try to get at what is time, you start to see that time is the clearing that makes room for the separation of subject over here and objects over there; but there never is that. Even if you try to imagine for a moment, that your body is isolated, inseparable, because you can see it and you look at a pen and it looks separate. But your body is not just a thing in an environment, your body has the shape it has because of the compression due to atmosphere etc.
Which do you need more: your lungs or the air? Which is more you? The sun or your heart? You're gonna say your heart is really you and you're gonna say the sun is not you. I'm telling you that you are dividing (with language) a system that can't be that easily divided. Could the sun exist without you? Well you can think that in your consciousness and you can say so and i guess we in our consciousness will agree that this is the case, but let's also agree that you can't exists without the sun. You're a place and moment of one of its possibilities. It's not that you are the sun, it's that anything that you can't live without is party you, it's a reminder of the thing that is older than the divisions that language brings up. Language keeps creating the division of a me over here and a world over there. But is there deep down these divisions? No, there's something older than that. It is this grand cosmic process of which all of us are a part. It's not that I'm over and I am irrelevant... whether I am relevant or not, those have to do with the way we make ourselves relevant in our lives and part of that is in contemplating on the whole of which we are a part, from the socio-political, to the seeing of yourself as a place and moment that is very relevant without any of the crazy ridiculousness.
You can't get out of the fact that consciousness is the reality in which reality come home to roost. That's why it's seems like the universe began with our birth. How are time and consciousness related? This is the question I would ask the robust atheists. I want to hear those people tell me what time is, how time is related to consciousness and how those two are related to reality.
Because I hear people dismiss all notions that could be called a divine ground of being (to me that would be an impersonal god, but does recognise the problem of self-relation; something more Spinoza-ist, more deist, more Stoical). There is room for a recognition of a divine ground, but makes no recourse to any of the new age stuff and doesn't get caught in the sort of dogmatic individualism seen in some of the current trends. Trends like this atheism thing and the people idiotically named neo-Darwinians are just a construction of self-serving believes of the now-taken-for-granted individual that eclipsed a fundamental problem. The problem of dreamless sleepers. We are places and moments of an earth which recesses back into dreamless sleep and then wakes up. And there's always a co-given phenomena of world and self in these trends. Again there's never a self, independent of the world and there's never a world that's there . You try to use a word for what's there, independent of our consciousness, but that's just us doing that. I think there's a profound mystery. It's called our being. The mystery of the cosmos is the mystery of who we are. We are the self-aware cosmos.
You are a place and moment of everything that has ever existed and ever will. You are that which you are seeking to find. You couldn't be more relevant to your world. Your world is what is constructed of you. The problem is how to get out of this ego-attachment of narcissism, the disease of concern with oneself for getting that self and world - as object. That's a derivative phenomena. There's something older than it, prior to it.
Many of the existentialists writers, if you like them or not, people like Sartre, like Heidegger; these guys thought that they had discovered the science of consciousness, I mean Husserl said "We are the true positivists!". They thought they had figured the science of consciousness out and discovered this concept called "intentionality"... The science has discovered that there is something prior to the I'm-over-here-and-the-world's-over-there. There is a kind of ongoing set of relatedness that is the temporal clearing... When you try to get at what is time, you start to see that time is the clearing that makes room for the separation of subject over here and objects over there; but there never is that. Even if you try to imagine for a moment, that your body is isolated, inseparable, because you can see it and you look at a pen and it looks separate. But your body is not just a thing in an environment, your body has the shape it has because of the compression due to atmosphere etc.
Which do you need more: your lungs or the air? Which is more you? The sun or your heart? You're gonna say your heart is really you and you're gonna say the sun is not you. I'm telling you that you are dividing (with language) a system that can't be that easily divided. Could the sun exist without you? Well you can think that in your consciousness and you can say so and i guess we in our consciousness will agree that this is the case, but let's also agree that you can't exists without the sun. You're a place and moment of one of its possibilities. It's not that you are the sun, it's that anything that you can't live without is party you, it's a reminder of the thing that is older than the divisions that language brings up. Language keeps creating the division of a me over here and a world over there. But is there deep down these divisions? No, there's something older than that. It is this grand cosmic process of which all of us are a part. It's not that I'm over and I am irrelevant... whether I am relevant or not, those have to do with the way we make ourselves relevant in our lives and part of that is in contemplating on the whole of which we are a part, from the socio-political, to the seeing of yourself as a place and moment that is very relevant without any of the crazy ridiculousness.